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Dumps are out again !


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#1 pappyaar

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 02:27 AM

Hi all.

CCIE lab candidates may already know that, yes this is the green season :-). Look at the group study and you will see how ppl are "sheading their blood" to get pass through such a vigorous test.

Definetly they are working too hard on, how much labs ? YES, 3 labs as far as i know. I am even surprised after so much promising from our Senior and most respected member Darby, dumps are still out !!!!

Its just hard to believe that there would be any genuine passers now a days. Cisco should stop this shameful act.
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#2 laf_c

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 03:39 AM

Little can be done I believe. It's like hoping all people are good, nice and honest. And we know this is just utopia; as long as our society will be driven by money all these kind of "events" will happen.

What is left then? Our will to be SKILFUL engineers and our inner belief in ourselves.
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#3 pappyaar

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 04:52 AM

Little can be done I believe. It's like hoping all people are good, nice and honest. And we know this is just utopia; as long as our society will be driven by money all these kind of "events" will happen.

What is left then? Our will to be SKILFUL engineers and our inner belief in ourselves.


I strongly believe we are in some sort of illusion, a game moderated by these so called giants. They are responsible for bringing down the reputation of their own certs and creating starvation in market.

Just pathetic
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#4 chrcel

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 05:47 AM

well does that mean Darby will ride the dragon again take dumps out and sacrifice his lab efforts?
@pap: in philosophy this is commonly referred to as internal integrity -- can you challenge yourself or you just want the result. in other words is it the journey or the goal you're interested in?
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#5 MarkinManchester

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 06:13 AM

It doesnt really matter because if they dump it they end up flipping burgers or working nights in a petrol station!

Mark
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#6 martinlo

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:33 AM

you mean dumps for CCIE labs are out ? but how ? to take CCIE lab you have to go to one of Cisco location, right.

Cisco can easily change tickets or tasks that you have to do during lab to get points.
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#7 Darby Weaver

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:41 AM

Pappyyaar,

While I would love to spend the rest of my career chasing down the dump guys and making "them" work a little harder to get more efficient at cracking Cisco's famously difficult CCIE Lab... I've had a realization about the whole thing.

1. Cisco does not really care too much about the whole dump scene - they have seemingly taken actions to minimize the effects of anyone being able to use such tools effectively, how?

- Every test can and apparently is now varied. This means that although the companies, groups, and teams that make a given "brain dump" have allowed for say 1-2 scenarios.... the candidate must now plan for all scenarios - dump it if you like... or learn it... it comes down to the same thing - will you know which option to use on the day of the lab.

- Groups of items previously scored separately are now scored as a group of items to get even few points. The expert candidate and passing candidate must successfully navigate all the tasks in a given section in order to gain any points, else lose them all.

- Give-me items like L2/L3 configurations are now given, except for certain items. Game changer - previously CCIE's might get points for assigning IP addressing and VLANs - that's all gone now for the most part.

- OEQs are gone for RS and Voice. Gone!.

- Troubeshooting is now a reality. Most problems read like can't ping... and that's like real life sort of... however... if you can't ping because:

- NTP is not working
- DHCP is not working
- Authnentication is not working
- Time-based ACL is broken
- Redistribution is now working
- PPP, PPPoFr, PPPoE or just CHAP/PAP is broken... and something is not working...
- IP Addressing is mangled and not working...
- Subnet masks, speed, and duplex is not working...
- MTU is incorrect...
- VTP is not working...
- Trunking is or is not workking...
- SPT root is not working... or values are incorrect...
- VLANs and not propagated or otherwise not working...
- Any number of things with MPLS are not working...
- Duplicate Router-ID's on various protocols are not working...
- Timers are not working...
- Summaries are not working...
- Split Horizon, Hold Timers, and Dead Timers are just plain broke...

And this may be on a per ticket basis for up to 10+ tickets.... EACH.

2. Cisco does not really care about "cheating" as I have defined it previously... they saw what I presented, called my bluff, and raised the stakes - considerably... If you are not bringing something into the exam, taking someing out of the exam, or... even just taking the exam for someone else... they don't seem to call anything else anything else but preparation.

3. Cisco has found a way to counter the "memorizers" and that is to offer all options at virtually any time on any exam. Sure you might know the topology... or do you really? The L2 IOU Switches are now in the Lab and they are not offered on any dump... none. The other issues are variable on a per exam basis... And from my research even some of the "plain Jane" topics are kicking the teeth out of even the most organized groups seeking to pass the lab carte blanche...


Sorry to disappoint but the current menu of exams are doing what they are supposed to do... and candidates are very successfully failing the exam as intended, once, twice, three times... eight times or more...

Sure some pass, but not many... and very few on the first try... as intended.

I just left an entire room of Cisco's Advanced Network Services employees and most of them are very sharp and scored from 65 to 97 on NMC's CheckIT Labs... and yet... most of them already failed the CCIE RS Lab 1-2+ times each and some a lot more.

One guy took every bootcamp and even evaluated all of them from each vendor (more than once???) and he was there with his team...

Another guy visited and is now going for his 3rd or even 4th shot and he did the entire Cisco 360 Lab Workbook and all the graded labs with 85+ percent scores...

Dude... The current lab is a challange and people taking it are like fodder being spent trying to storm a beach.

So...

While the lab can possibly be "cheated" ... maybe?

It's going to take some very serious work to do it successfully due to the dynamics currently implemented into the lab... and if people know all those options and can navigate each of them successfully... then they are probably already CCIE's.
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#8 Darby Weaver

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:43 AM

I forgot to mention... services multiplied by infinity and then further multiplied by that thing we call interpretation are now active on the current labs as well.

Umm... if anyone can cheat that... they are quite clever anyway and are probably worthy of being called a CCIE.

The lab has changed and it is a different animal so far.
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#9 Darby Weaver

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:50 AM

Also consider what Mark said and multiply it by what Chrcel has said...

The goal of the program is to make a more knowledgeable engineer, that's it. Not much else.

If a person does take a shortcut... who got cheated? Cisco out of a few extra lab attempts over a few years... or...

Perhaps that CCIE who cries at night in wonder about how he or she can never seem to get a job, a good job, or a job actually doing CCIE level work, or whatever...

There are some CCIE's out there... that might as well refer to themselves as MCSE+CCIE since they do more Microsoft Server work than networking work... some are PMP+CCIE... some are SANS+CCIE or even CISSP+CCIE... but they are hardly CCIE... except in digits and on paper.

Who got cheated?

If a CCIE cannot speak to a CCNP technically in a pre-sales meeting... who got cheated?


I know a guy in I.T. who graduated high school and a technical school... but can't do basic math in his head on the fly... who got cheated?


A person can do whatever they like, call it whatever they want to, but if they come up short in the end... who got cheated?
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#10 Darby Weaver

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 12:04 PM

Pappy,

Nadeem just passed the CCIE Lab on his first attempt. You may not know Nadeem aside from his post on GS... but search on his name, he's been active since 2006 or so and he and I have sparred technically over the years - yep... since he got started.

He did not suddenly emerge as a CCIE after a mere 3 months of study in the closet at work.

Search on the word "Congratulations" and you'll see the last people to pass the CCIE Lab for any track.

Nadeem passed on the first try per his post.

Another guy named Saulat passed on his first try about 2+ weeks earlier.

Else... the next few guys passed on the 3rd or so attempts...


If we go to the underground sites and compare the times/dates and the number of passers...

We see the mirror and while for sure people are collaborating... sometimes it would seem to be of ill effect to the candidate or many cases of the blind leading the blind, over and over again.


I only see about 20 threads from 12/14/2010 to present over a period of nearly 5 months.


20 people in 20 weeks and only a couple or a few passing on the first attempt and at least one now a double CCIE.


I'm not sure we can call this a flood just yet... maybe light rain.
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#11 Darby Weaver

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 12:13 PM

Genuine Passers?

How do we define such a person?

The CCIE Training Vendors root out places like GS or their own forums and are made aware of new questions and techniques which automagically make it to their products soon afterwards.

Employees at Cisco and Cisco Partners openly collaborate and are not chastised for doing so... some may even lightly encourage the act - so it is a norm and certainly not unexpected.

That leaves the outsiders - non-Cisco Employees, non-Cisco Partners, and people otherwise self-paying for their studies... the deep minority to fend for themselves... and that's where forums and places such as Groupstudy come in.

Not to openly cheat the test but instead to discuss the technologies... which just so happen to be on the test... not a mere coincidence after all, is it?

Which candidates are "genuine"... it's really really gray and hard to tell any more?

So Cisco said "Fine... we'll give you a test deigned specifically knowing the test may well be in the public eye, but now you'll have to be very good at what you do know, plan for what you don't know, and be damned if you cannot tell the difference..."


What else can anyone do?

Either prepare as best the Internet can afford one to be prepared, else... give up seeking the CCIE, period.

Cisco can now raise the price from $1400.00 to maybe $2000.00+ an attempt and that would daunt a few more... but maybe $5000.00 an attempt is really more like it.

What else can Cisco do now?
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#12 Darby Weaver

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 12:28 PM

FYI - One of the guys at Cisco has said he's working on the newest batch of labs already...

So even this modest shift may yet change.

I don't think Cisco wants absolutely no one to pass the lab and the trainers still like to believe their training is helpful, they really do.
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#13 pappyaar

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 06:43 PM

you mean dumps for CCIE labs are out ? but how ? to take CCIE lab you have to go to one of Cisco location, right.

Cisco can easily change tickets or tasks that you have to do during lab to get points.


Yes, but why would cisco do it, in my view, its the vendor itself compromising the labs to "leak" out more CCIE for reason they know better.

And to Mark, i have seen dumpers getting handsome packages in Dubia, KSA. Few of them were my seniors and few were my peers. None of them complained of working on a petrol station :-)
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#14 chrcel

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:34 PM

well, I doubt cisco is intentionally leaking the labs it self. The lab was fairly easy to memorize. especially if your only aim would be to memorize the lab. After I left my lab I guess I would be able to write down at least 60% of the lab. So in order to leak a lab you just need a bunch of people (like 6 or so) to go to the lab memorize it and write it down. THe cost it such case would be ~$10k. I can imagine this pays of rather fast.
The only way to challenge this is, what Darby is saying, to add variability to the labs. If there are only 2-3 labs well that is not too hard to get them. Luckily there is now the troubleshooting which is much easier to add new task it. as for lab you have to account for every possible way to do and therefor it is extremely difficult to develop a new lab whose results can by parsed by a script with a reasonable confidence in proper "judgment".
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#15 talent pk

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:57 PM

Yes, but why would cisco do it, in my view, its the vendor itself compromising the labs to "leak" out more CCIE for reason they know better.

And to Mark, i have seen dumpers getting handsome packages in Dubia, KSA. Few of them were my seniors and few were my peers. None of them complained of working on a petrol station :-)

this is what every vendor does dear. Microsoft Cisco Oracle Linux Citrix they all do this.
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#16 Sunfish

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:23 PM

We all know that some people dump any certification from any vendor but I stopped caring about it.

Personally, I did not even have the time to get my CCNA Voice but my customers simply know that I can do the job and my references speak for themselves. On the other hand I saw those customers employing at least CCVP-certified guys that got kicked out again in less than a week - and we all know why.

So yes, there are dumpsters out there but they tend to quickly disqualify themselves in the real world. ;)
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#17 Darby Weaver

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 12:10 AM

Pappy...

If people want to merely memorize 1 test that's fine and all... if they actually become employed, I guess that's ok too. Everyone wants to eat and afford things for their families and for some it is the only road they know.

However, at the end of the day, it tends to affect these people somehow...

Confidence and Security - These things can't be cheated on so easily. It's easy to try but a lie is still a lie... and I'm not the guy who has to tell anyone why.

If a person is truly not ready to be the lead engineer for a company than merely defeating a CCIE Lab by any means necessary and available will not help that person on the job.

Maybe forums will... maybe lists will...

Except:

The same forums and lists that helped a person defeat the integrity of these exams are now littered with the decaying knowledge of know-nots that were clever and organized enough to defeat the exams in the first place.

The result?

A degradation in the overall quality of the brain-share we'd normally be enjoying.

I guess it kinda works like "half-life" of a radioactive atom or something.

I get more synnergy in a 15-16 weeks from my up and coming CCNA study group, than I've seen on Groupstudy in some years. Years.

That's pretty rough stuff.

Why?

Because every member of the group brings something to the table, questions, mis-conceptions, work-related stuff, theory, formulas for even doing simple subnetting problems faster and even more cleverly, etc.

You never know.

I don't see the participation level in a CCIE Bootcamp, that I obtain in my CCNA class?

Why is that?

Are CCIE candidates now the sheep? and no longer the lions? The timid who are afraid to roar.


If the actual CCIEs on places like Groupstudy and other forums disappeared then perhaps we'd see people actually "thinking" and maybe even making some mistakes even. As of now, that is largely unheard of...

Nothing like beating the cubs into submission.

Sorry, when people are hopeless and cannot trust their own confidence to ensure their own job security... and they have fallen totally prey to "NEEDING" a number to be the only means of "GUARANTEEING" their ability to become or remain employed... Houston we have a problem.

The program was designed to create better qualified engineers who learned how to think...

Today a lot of engineers... know how to research better, but not all know how to do this well, and very few can think outside of the box... even if they managed to get some digits...

When CCIEs cannot even figure out how to open a dump... um... give the digits back. Really.... give them back.


We now see people (some of whom may even be a CCIE) trying to ask others for copies of their resumes.... since they have little to no experience or any idea of what will actually help them to solicit a recruiter's call and hopefully an interview.

That's weak and it is sad.

Repeat: WEAK and SAD... and all at the same time.
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#18 Darby Weaver

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 12:13 AM

I get mocked by some of these paperish CCIE tigers (even one of the training companies actually) for my 6 attempts at the lab and my answer remains the same:

1. I'd prefer to fail and know that I have more to learn versus...

2. Passing the lab on the 1st attempt or any attempt and never realizing some things I'll never be able to understand.


Others... may not feel this way.

So goes life.
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#19 faisal.saleem

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 05:16 AM

I strongly believe we are in some sort of illusion, a game moderated by these so called giants. They are responsible for bringing down the reputation of their own certs and creating starvation in market.

Just pathetic


mate, i see both side of the CCIE picture.
Cisco needs to stay at number 1 in the market and more Cisco certified engineers means more their equipments will be sale because mostly Cisco certified Network engineers/Architectures recommend Cisco in the first stage of project planning because in their opinions it is easy to install,configure and troubleshoot. Juniper tried their best back in 2007/2008 by launching the free certification to produce more juniper certified but they could not and can not beat Cisco.

Yes no doubt after the invention of OEQ the dumpers were busted badly and as expected the CCIE number got dramatically down. And as far as i remember due to this misfortune the Cisco removed the official worldwide page from their site so that it would prevent the more damage to their CCIE program reputation.

At the end of day if you wants to blame Cisco for CCIE cracking then it would be wise if you would also blame the ppl who go for K-Vitamins.

So for me it is like 50% blame on cisco and 50% blame on dumpers. Sadly just 3 or 4 years ago only total 20 or i think 25 CCIE's were in Pakistan and according to Eman's statement only few CCIE's http://www.ccieflyer...stani_CCIES.php
But
after the full support of group buy k-vitamin( plus providing teaching of these vitamins) from one of the reputed Cisco training institute here in Lahore (luckily also a gold partner too since form last few years) the number has been crossed now 100 or may be 150+..

So the question is do you know what all these 100+ or 150+ Pakistanis CCIE doing in real market? A rough guess may be 15% or 20% are getting high pay/seats but what about the rest? Be-aware at the end a real guru when earns a CCIE then he sits in a better position as compared to dumpers CCIE, I knows a Pakistani guru whose lab visa was rejected by Belgium gov due to security reasons and then he reschedule his lab in some other country but when he earned the digit then later he joined Cisco TAC @ Brussels

ummm

Who ruined the CCIE market? it was you, it was me, it is our friends and co-workers who cracked and cracking the CCIE and then tend to advice the next CCIE pursue generation that "hey use this vitamin if you do not want to waste your money". So if Cisco is really playing a game with us then we(all) are also a part of this K-Vitamins game.

Have a nice day and happy k-vitamin..
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#20 Darby Weaver

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 05:25 AM

Capital K.
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#21 a61971

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 02:12 AM

Funny thought:

If you can't beat them, join them :D

What if Cisco paid the dump-companies for info about emails and bank accounts, - or even owned the companies :P
Do we really believe that those companies, living on cheating, would refuse some nice trading in the backyard?

Very funny indeed, Cicsco would know the identity of the customers ....
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#22 Big Evil

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 02:28 AM

People cheat in all world/life pursuits, why should Cisco it IT be different?

Athletes take drugs, race car drivers tune their engine's. Hell i have heard of brass band players using drugs to get them through a concert. Where do we draw the line? Why do people dump exams, to get better jobs, more money and all the spoils that go with them. No it does not make it right, should the vendors try harder to stop the dump sites for sure.

Hearing of people cheating the CCIE lab is like some cheating at the Olympics, wrong. I would rather come last knowing i did not cheat, than first knowing i did.
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#23 a61971

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 02:46 AM

Big Evil

You are right about that, I just had a thought.

To me it's nothing but a certification, not very important in life, - Life has bigger issues than who cheats a certification.

If someone looks at the CCIE as a "bigger than life thing" - they got a problem. ;)
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#24 Darby Weaver

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 04:21 AM

Life goes no either way.

I'm taking the slow boat and it is a bit more scenic. It's worked so far.

Still got the jobs, still employed pregressively better year after year, and still enjoy my working in my field...

What else was there?
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#25 Big Evil

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 05:25 AM

No doubt there, there are many paths one can choose in life. Some like the roads that are straight where you can speed along, others prefer the winding roads and the scenic views.
As long as you have a start and a destination you are set. There will be short cuts; hey we all like these now and again, but let us not confuse a short cuts with those instead of making their own way, they ride on the coat tails off others. They do not care which way they get there just as long as they do.

Here is their issue, once they get to the end try to ask them how they got there. It will be clear to all that they never really knew where they were going or how they got there, their journey will be of confusion. Ask them to re-trace their journey and they will be lost after a few miles down the road, panic will set in and at this point they will be lost. Lost & confused they struggle on, not being able to find their way.
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#26 Darby Weaver

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 05:53 AM

Ah... we can spend our whole lives trying to reverse engineer the psychology.

Better to spend the time understanding split-horizon and poison reverse.
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#27 cciecrazy7

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:03 PM

Hi all

Recently in March i failed my first ccie security lab attempt , though i scored 100% in ASA and control plane security , got 2 vpns working ,scored 50 % in AAA and IPS overall i managed near about 65% , got through 3 OEQ out of 4 but what i observed is

1).I mastered ASA from ine and ipexpert material scored 100%
2).I was weak in AAA and IPS due to lack of practice hence i messed up that portion
3).VPNS were all troubleshooting , i never had any pre-planned approach of troubleshooting multiple vpns and hence i failed

As we all know there are two major portions of ccie lab

1)Major lab - where the traffic flows between vpn via ips and AAA and stuff regarding tunneling the traffic via ASA , authenticating users via AAA
2).Switch and router security - SNRS(ccsp )and control plane stuff , policing , rate limiting (IN A NUTSHELL WITH LITTLE CONFIGURATION MORE UNDERSTANDING)

let me explain about the major lab

overall there are 16 vps in blueprint , all the AAA technologies are clearly mentioned in blueprint and the same goes with ASA and these were the only thing on the exam even if cisco changes the lab's vpn portion everyday they will run out of vpn in a month's time , provided they keep mixing it with ASA's,IPS every now and then but still its not a long term solution!, don't you think so guys.

Now lets move on to the second portion of lab ie. switch and router security - for this portion you should know the basics of CCNP + CCSP a clear understanding of layer 7 inspection of all major protocols which again is standard and can be found in books and cisco.com and RFC's, so here is nothing tricky about it and every good ccie candidate knows this stuff i believe

So is it really difficult? if no, then why are there 4000 odd ccie sec guys? provided these days dumps are there...
Thinking logically its useless to brain-dump a CCIE sec lab , what can you brain-dump ? its just way too complex

Hop you guys agree with me(Darby i m a great fan of your posts :P)

I attended one bootcamp , studied from INE , IPEXPERT , cisco.com , rfc and tried to nail the blueprint.
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#28 Darby Weaver

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:46 PM

cciecrazy7,

Sorry you did not make it this time. Looks like you performed well and scored well overall with the notable discrepancies which it seems like you were already aware of before the attempt.

I have to agree the latest rounds of labs are pretty tough on even a well-prepared candidate by all acccounts.

I'm working with my CCNA study group to master items like IP Addressing and manipulation "on sight" and timing their ability to configure fairly lengthy configurations that are production-ready. Password recovery in under a minute flat, etc.

Since I'm demanding excellence in my CCNA study group I've also starting holding myself to the same standards.

1. Be able to whiteboard and explain to my audience any given technology in a detailed and correct fashion.

2. Configure my L2/L3+ Redistribution in under 2 hours for any lab at 100% accuracy (should be a given, but it has not been).

3. Study at least 3-5 hours each day after work - topic by topic for mastery and presentation.


The CCIE Security is surely a tough track. For a variety of reasons and the idea that RS is the most popular is probably the biggest one of all.

There is a financial carrot that is enticing for the CCIE Security Candidate and this helps but there is no "Voice or Face" for the CCIE Security.

Every war needs "Heros" kinda like a Greek Tragedy.

RS has many.

Security has few.

Those CCIE's who are notable multi-CCIE in RS are non-existent for Security for the most track - or so it seems to me. That hurts the track more than most other things.

Security needs an evangelist.
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#29 olik1986

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 08:15 PM

It’s all about money Cisco really does not care about dump sites.
How many people try ccie lab just because of dumps so Cisco makes more money.
We have to accept it we live in sick corrupt world.
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#30 Scales

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:33 AM

I honestly can not work out why people care about People using dumps to pass any certification. If people only use dumps to get their certifications they will be found out at the job interview phase - and if their not that is the fault of the company. After that the person should be discovered by his peers and tossed out.

I have said this before and I will say it again - Your certifications will merely get you a job interview. The knowledge you attained getting XYZ certification will shine in your interview.

I would stop spending so much energy worrying about this and divert your attention to improving your own knowledge and certification level.

Scales.
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