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Windows Admins Vs Linux Admins


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#1 Explisit

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 05:25 AM

Well this topic maybe is even for another section but I posted it here.

So here is pretty much like is in my countrys:

1. There is no difference in salaries between Win and Lin admins
2. Lin admins are fewer (but it's required to them also to know Windows)
3. Win admins there is plenty (well at least they think they are admins)
4. From every admins (with good salary and good company) the requirements for job are: Linux administration, Windows administration, MySQL / Oracle / RDMBS, DNS administration, Apache administration, PHP, C/C++, BD/MD in computer science or something similar and several years experience and only god knows what else. Well OK but the picture is pretty much the same even for Junior System administrator. - :wacko:
5. Every CCNA, MCSA, MCSE in my country think that are cool with everything related to computers
6. Certificates are really not much important - well this have 1 good side but really I think this is not right


Well now to the theme:

I cannot give any good example for this but I will try and I also expect paiste2002 to point other thigs:

1. IPTABLES - Well I really think this is the most flexable firewall for PC today
2. APACHE - The is the most used web server and nowdays it even beats IIS in SSL/TLS
3. POSTFIX/SENDMAIL - these are some pretty good mail servers

And All this is FREE! This means that if you just open an office or new company one good Linux admin will make your expences to minumum. Also I just read one article in which says that avarega 1 linux admin take care of 44 servers, while 1 Windows admin to only 10. I also see some network budgets and in the end of all calculations the results are that Linux enviroment will be a hell more cheaper than Windows enviroment.

Edited by Explisit, 07 May 2006 - 10:23 PM.

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#2 masedira

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 06:47 AM

Well this topic maybe is even for another section but I posted it here.

So here is pretty much like is in my countrys:


What country?

Edited by masedira, 07 May 2006 - 06:47 AM.

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#3 Roykeane

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 12:09 PM

Topics with titles like that have been "battled" so many times in Sadikhov. I dont think it is necessary to start a thread so as to ignite the battle field again.

Anyways, my 2 cents has always been that Windows and Linux will coexist in this complex IT environment for quite some time and as long as they are, there will be a need for both Windows and Linux admins. Your main "weapon" in the battle field seems to be the cost of deploying and administring a linux environment. Well, your weapon might be 'effective' in some cases but take a look at the recent changes in the prices as well as the licensing cost of Microsoft products plus the ease of use of MS OS'es and the fact that the presence of so many Windows Admins in the market makes Windows administration and deployment cost comparable,if not equal, to its Linux counterpart.

Adios for now.
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#4 azmi_p

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 08:26 PM

Both have their own strengths...
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#5 Explisit

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 10:48 PM

Well ok this "fight" is pointless just for the reason azmi_p say - they both have own streight. Well for the country let's just say it's a small country in Europe. And the main reason to start the topic was not because it was never started before, or because it will be something completly new - no. The reason to start it was to collect all good and bad sides in one place. Well my enthusiasm is inspired because I every day discover so many and many new things in Linux (I'm relativly newbie). Also the section about the situation in my country I wrote about it because I was curious how is in the other countries as well. And to Roykeane - I don't have any "weapons" - this is just the most used argument (and security) in my country between win and lin admins.
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#6 paiste2002

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 02:02 AM

Well, I suppose the big thing about Linux is choice.
If you want postfix you can have it if not then there are plenty of alternatives.

The cool thing with Linux is it takes the Bull S%£$ out of programming because the source
code is there for everyone to see. If your code is going to be seen by thousands of people you
will probably code to the best of you ability otherwise your code will get flamed and replaced.
The BSD projects are a great example of good quality control.

There is no such control at Microsoft or Oracle etc...

You are not abstracted from the OS buy a GUI. This then allows you to fully explore
what you can do and really be creative. Filling a couple of fields and clicking on "apply" is
not computer science to me. I don't hate closed source software. I like Apple's OSX
and the traditional UNIX OS's too. Microsoft has a yearly R&D budget of close to 8 billion dollars per year
and what you get for that is not as good as it should be when you see how well Linux does on
far less. You can't stop big corporate software giants from £$%&ing you over but you as an individual
and easily stop $%^&ing yourself over :-)

PS Iptables is a great firewall, better than Nokia or Checkpoint!
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#7 SyGo

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 03:20 AM

1. There is no difference in salaries between Win and Lin admins
2. Lin admins are fewer (but it's required to them also to know Windows)
3. Win admins there is plenty (well at least they think they are admins)
4. From every admins (with good salary and good company) the requirements for job are: Linux administration, Windows administration, MySQL / Oracle / RDMBS, DNS administration, Apache administration, PHP, C/C++, BD/MD in computer science or something similar and several years experience and only god knows what else. Well OK but the picture is pretty much the same even for Junior System administrator. - :wacko:
5. Every CCNA, MCSA, MCSE in my country think that are cool with everything related to computers
6. Certificates are really not much important - well this have 1 good side but really I think this is not right


well... here (portugal) things are a bit different, from my point of view (and mind that it is MY point of view and someone else might just have an contrary opinion).

as to your 1st point, here there is quite a difference between *nix and windows admins, Unix admins are less in number and therefore are able to get paychecks with better numbers on it. Period. There is right now a rather high demand for experienced unix admins in portugal. there is NO job market for junior anything...Sys admin, network admin, security admin, unix admin, windows admin...forget it, they don't want any Juniors.

as to your second point I feel that it really depends on the size of the corporation you are working for. if you are THE admin...well...hyea, you must know linux/unix and windows because your client computers will most likely use windows as an OS. (openoffice is wonderful and I use it 99% of the time, but for the other 1% I'll still have to check if my Impress presentation will work ok on someone else's computer running Power Point, or if the headers with fancy graphics on my OpenOffice writer document will not be messed up when someone from across the planet opens it using Ms Word...) A document that cannot be opened correctly can ruin a deal, a screwed ppt file can throw an important presentation out the window so...well.. MS office is still the de facto standard. (not to mention that custom made sofware, for factoring, and standard business management is 100% windows based. there are a couple of opensource solutions out there (I checked for a private client a wile back) but everything is very beta-ish "might-or-might-not" "use at your own risk" sort of thing. which is OK for some uses, but when it comes to money people are not so keen on investing on risky software.

Now if the company is big enough you'll be a part of a team and then you can have your Unix admins and your Windows admins with separate duties. that in my opinion is a confortable place to be, the pay isn't bad and you get to develop expertise in whichever area you like the most...which brings us to number 4.

the number 4 is my personal favorite because it's exacly what happens in the job market these days: complete outrageous requisits for a job. honestly if anyone dominates ALL of those platforms + programming in C++/PHP whatever...really, man... you are a guru and what the hell are you doing looking for a job? start your own business and run the competition to the ground. you will be the only employee and you'll be rich in two years time. off the the cottage in the coutry side.

I remember this story about an add for programmers with at least 4 years of experience in JAVA... the only problem was that Java was a rather new language at the time and had only been around for a couple of years. hyea, good luck filling in that spot.

number 6 I disagree. Certificates get you the inteview. that's pretty much it. it's a club, a member's only card. It's a tool like any other to get to the interview, like having an impressive resume or a fancy recommendation letter.

So there is really no "right way to go"... one must follow his disposition...if you like what windows provides to you as a professional go for it. If you love unix/linux go for it.

I think the only totally wrong way to go about this is to choose what you think the market is in need for. if you have to work with windows 8 hours a day for the rest of your life but unix is your religion then you'll be miserable (and what's the point of making a bit more money if you are unhappy at the end of the day?) If you go for unix for those extra bucks and spend 8 hours a day thinking "damn these case sensitive command lines -s -S, who cares????" then... you know you've made the wrong turn somewhere.

choose what you love. that debian avatar leaves me with no doubts as to your OS of choice. but let me give you a little peice of advice: give it time to mature in you. I was a DOS geek, then a Windows Geek, then Linux Geek, then a MacOS lover and now I'm turning to Unix...only to find (at age 27) thay I really love anything that resembles an Operative System. there is no war in my head between platforms, only a big array of things wide and interesting to explore.

peace.

later edit: OMG, I wrote all that??? I must lay down for a wile now...

Edited by SyGo, 08 May 2006 - 03:20 AM.

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#8 masedira

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 11:50 AM

Also I really liked the paiste2002 phrase "Filling a couple of fields and clicking on "apply" is
not computer science to me" - :D This phrase really rocs!! I really like it very much :)


Whts the problem if microsoft makes it easier for you to apply your settings through GUI? In the end its not about if you configure your system in GUI or command line, its about WHAT you configure your system with. And in both cases you have to understand what you are configuring.

However, there are some people who think using black shell screens makes them cool because it is more difficult.

Edited by masedira, 09 May 2006 - 11:51 AM.

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#9 paiste2002

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 02:07 AM

Also I really liked the paiste2002 phrase "Filling a couple of fields and clicking on "apply" is
not computer science to me" - :D This phrase really rocs!! I really like it very much :)


Whts the problem if microsoft makes it easier for you to apply your settings through GUI? In the end its not about if you configure your system in GUI or command line, its about WHAT you configure your system with. And in both cases you have to understand what you are configuring.

However, there are some people who think using black shell screens makes them cool because it is more difficult.





Nahh, what is cool is not needing a mouse to do my job. That's cool ;)
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#10 spacyfreak

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:13 PM

Well well - i use best of both worlds.

This discussion or "religious wars" between win-admins and linux-admins are very old - and very boring!

1. Linux is not able to give you at the moment the functionality of the Windows Domain Concept.

2. Its hard to administer an environment where all the Clients use ANY DEsktop System they want. The admins have to run much more than if everybody uses ONE Desktop system, and its centralized managed (domain-princip with GPOs etc).

3. I love Linux for its simplicity and it supports my philosophy of "minimation". What means - if i need a Webserver - i simply install a super-thin linux distribution, apache, php - and THATS It. With Windows, the web-server is way to FAT.

4. In a hybrid-multivendor network its MUCH admininistrative overhead cause you need knowlege of many vendors and systems, and you need to find TRICKS to bring this all together to work together.
Not very effective!!!


I think, for many people it simply looks cool if they administer their server via shell, without "klick-klick" and graphics.
It gives them the "feeling" of beeing "cool", "professional" and something like a "hacker" (or "nerd"?).
Anyway - no matter if you prefer using Windows Server or an UNIX / LINUX machine, you need to UNDERSTAND how the services work (for example DNS/BIND or IIS/Apache).
The REST is just a question of taste.
Typing commands in a shell looks cool - thats right.
BUT - its not optimized on HUMAN NEEDS!
Why all the Desktop Systems are not just command-line designed?
Cause no normal Person would use them!
So forget the thought that "Mouse-Admins" are not professional.
Maybe they are more professional and modern then US LINuX-NERDS?


Simply - dont be narrow-minded! No matter in which direction.

Edited by spacyfreak, 12 June 2006 - 08:23 PM.

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#11 paiste2002

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 10:30 PM

This discussion or "religious wars" between win-admins and linux-admins are very old - and very boring!

1. Linux is not able to give you at the moment the functionality of the Windows Domain Concept.

~~~Wrong, Heard of samba?




2. Its hard to administer an environment where all the Clients use ANY DEsktop System they want. The admins have to run much more than if everybody uses ONE Desktop system, and its centralized managed (domain-princip with GPOs etc).


~~~~Wrong, This can be controlled with proper kickstart files and default configs (gdm and kdm) policies.


3. I love Linux for its simplicity and it supports my philosophy of "minimation". What means - if i need a Webserver - i simply install a super-thin linux distribution, apache, php - and THATS It. With Windows, the web-server is way to FAT.

4. In a hybrid-multivendor network its MUCH admininistrative overhead cause you need knowlege of many vendors and systems, and you need to find TRICKS to bring this all together to work together.
Not very effective!!!


I think, for many people it simply looks cool if they administer their server via shell, without "klick-klick" and graphics.
It gives them the "feeling" of beeing "cool", "professional" and something like a "hacker" (or "nerd"?).
Anyway - no matter if you prefer using Windows Server or an UNIX / LINUX machine, you need to UNDERSTAND how the services work (for example DNS/BIND or IIS/Apache).
The REST is just a question of taste.
Typing commands in a shell looks cool - thats right.
BUT - its not optimized on HUMAN NEEDS!

~~~Wrong, using a GUI to replace knowledge robs you of your independance but then a GUI user
would not know that???

Why all the Desktop Systems are not just command-line designed?
Cause no normal Person would use them!

~~~No, because playing videos in ASCII text does not work very well


So forget the thought that "Mouse-Admins" are not professional.
Maybe they are more professional and modern then US LINuX-NERDS?

~~~What logic demands that the abstraction of the OS makes such users more professional ?

~~~I am not trying to troll here but these statements are simply incorrect :blink:

Edited by paiste2002, 13 June 2006 - 11:55 PM.

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#12 spacyfreak

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 06:12 PM

LoL - brother, you wont tell ME that SAMBA is able to give you the same functionality, stability, security and scalability for a really big environment like a modern Windows Server 2003 Domain Controller can!
Sure its no secret that SAMBA (especially version 3) TRIES to give you this functionality. Have you ever tried it out? Do you know ANY bigger company who uses SAMBA as Domaincontroller instead of Windows Server?

Second LOL - should i write kixstart scripts for all this different OS that my users want to use? And every 2 month a new distribution is on the market, and i need 2 more admins who only care for this?
Its simply MORE administrative task necessary if you have multiple vendor desktop systems, then if you have ONE unified desktop system for thousands of users, who are logged in the domain and who dont have administrative privileges. I think 99% of the professionals will agree with this statement, brother.

Of cause - useage of a GUI for administrative tasks does cut your possibilities. You can do MORE if you directly configure the service in a config file. BUT the "standard" configurations are simply easier configured and you dont have to care so much about synthax problems and changing config files in different distributions. On Windows Server Systems, you can in addition also use commands to configure things which you can not configure via GUI. I can not see what is the problem to make it easier for admins to manage their system via a user-friendly GUI.

I am not talking about a network with 15 clients.
We have to manage over 5000 clients. That is another dimension and we need concepts that really work and which are easy and safe to manage.

Though i love Linux and i use Linux in some cases, the Total Costs are HIGHER if you have a mixed network (microsoft + linux). If you ONLY want to use linux, you will not have all functions you need.
Some time before i also thought linux is the better choice for everything.
But more and more i see the clean Integrity of microsoft products (though i am NOT a microsoft maniac at all!).
The Domain Controller with Active Directory as the central User- and Devices Database.
IAS as RADIUS Server to authenticate users per Kerberos for Machines who can only talk Radius (WLAN Access Points for example or RAS Hardware).
I also run some FreeRadius Servers on Linux.
But WHAT is the advantage? Its difficult with this machines to authenticate Active Directory users.
You need to configure ntlm_auth and winbind. You have to find rare information on google.
So i use a separeted User Database on MySql Basis. But i would prefer to use Active Directory!
Cause now i have it doubled. MySql User Database, and the same users in Active Directory. Sick!
With IAS, this is fixed in 15 minutes and some mouse-clicks, with FreeRadius you need some days to get it running!
Group Policies to enforce company policies. Portal Services, totally integrated in AD.
Its simply a system which is very clean integrated, and Active Directory is the center of it all.

But maybe also, its simply a question of taste.
But the integrity of microsoft products seems to make it a good choice.

Edited by spacyfreak, 16 June 2006 - 04:21 PM.

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#13 paiste2002

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:04 AM

Very funny :P
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#14 Explisit

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 10:57 AM

Well this topic goes to dead end and I think I must put it out of his misery :)
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