40 replies to this topic

[Mafiosa]

Hi everybody,

can you tell me your experiences with CCIE Bootcamps ?

Which companies are recommendable, which not ?

Regards and thanks in advance,
D.

[Darby Weaver]

I get three weeks of training from my company. I asked them to pay for 2 weeks with Narbik in April in California.

I could have went anywhere and taken mostly anything I wanted.

Narbik is 360. He covers his materials, his way, and also gives the 360 Assessment as well as the 360 exam required to permit a retake if you should fail the CCIE Lab.


I've been to Narbik for 1 week back in the CCIE RS Lab 2.0 days as a guest.

I've been to a week with Heinz Ulm for Mock Labs.

I've been to NMC Week-1 (Twice) and Week-2 (These are today's CCIERS-1 and CCIERS-2 of the Cisco 360 Program).

I've been to IPexpert Week 1 (Lecture, Powerpoint, and essentially work through 1-2 labs + 1 sort of graded 3rd lab on Friday) and Week 2 (CCIE 4.0 Labs x 4 - Really more Service Provider oriented). I think I'm entitled to at least a reseat of the 1 week updated class for CCIE 4.0 if I ask.

I've still have full access to INE's product line - COD/Workbooks/OEQ/TS 4.0/etc. and I did the 1 Week Mock Lab (I think I'm covered for a reseat if I ask).

Hmmm...

That's where I've been, what the score is, and after all of it, I'm going back to Narbik.

Heinz would be an interesting choice as well, but I can't go for the whole three week experience even though a part deep inside me wants to work through the three weeks with Heinz and then struggle to beat his 4th week of mock labs as only he can engineer them. This to me is a testament to being ready for anyone's labs at any time.

[Mafiosa]

Thank you very much for your detailed answer.

I am from Germany, so Heinz would be the better choice for me, I think...

[Darby Weaver]

Heinz rocks!

I do love Heinz but he may not be in Germany any longer. Instead you will probably see his other instructor, the equally evil "Heikl"... Heinz is teaching in Denver, Colorado... USA.

Edited by Darby Weaver, 23 February 2010 - 12:42 AM.

[MadVillian]

Narbik and Heinz seem to standout a bit from the other vendors but, I know if I could swing it, I'd attend the Cathay bootcamp. I might take the Wolf course thou.

[Darby Weaver]

I got a quote from Narbik for a 2 week class this year. However it looks like he only offers this 2 week option one time and there is nothing I've seen on his site for it.

Heinz has a awesome technique that is quite unique and more one-on-one than anyone else I've seen to date.

He offers many 1 week, 2 week, 3 week, and even another week of mock labs + "3-Week Students" get another week of rack access to complete the take home lab with. About $1990.00 per week or so for this type of training.

Heinz does not offer repeats however, Narbik offers them for life I think and encourages students to take advantage of the offer.

Narbik is 360 and Heinz is solo.

Narbik offers some/all of the 360 benefits too (I think - someone correct me). Heinz is not 360 and stands on his own curriculum.

I don't know because I've not asked yet, whether any of Heinz's students have yet passed CCIE v4.0.

I've not heard of any of Narbik's students passing the CCIE v4.0 yet. None specifically.


I'm kind of torn between the two. I put in my request for Narbik already and received a quote.

However, we were told today to have multiple dates for at least 2 classes (2 1-week classes or 1 2-week class in my own case) ready by the end of the week.

We have to work around operational commitments, standby personnel, projects, and of course other members of the team's desire to attend their own training too.

So I may have to opt for 50/50 or make a choice and decide how badly I want to see the Cisco 360.

Hey! Heinz teaches in Spain. Did I ever tell ya'll how much I love Spain? It's on my favorite country list. In fact, it is my favorite country. Whatever happened in Spain, wherever it happened in Spain, and all the times it happened in Spain... stayed in Spain.

So if anyone ever asks you any "Darby Trivia", you should know that my all time favorite country in this world is: Spain!

Why I have not taken a plane to Spain is beyond me. Why I just don't live there is one of my own life's greatest mysteries.

Sorry - going off topic... to Spain.

[Darby Weaver]

Take a look at this:

http://darbyslogs.bl...e-training.html

[MadVillian]

I think the key for me is also finding out whats the passing rate of the students taking the course. I hear many positive things about Heinz and Narbik but, I'm not sure whats their passing rates (especially with v4).

[techadmin]

i think passing depends on the Candidate than the trainer,What i would choose if i ever went for a bootcamp is Less no of student's, More rack time,Trainer should be able to answer anything. Now since V4 is very new, We hear less people passing it, Once it get's older the passing rate will automatically go up, I wonder how many of these trainers can actually still go and pass v4 or have passed the v4 just for Fun, It would be a nice Marketing strategy for them to say that get trained from a trainer who has xx years of experience and has also passed the V4 lab.

[Mafiosa]

i think passing depends on the Candidate than the trainer,What i would choose if i ever went for a bootcamp is Less no of student's, More rack time,Trainer should be able to answer anything. Now since V4 is very new, We hear less people passing it, Once it get's older the passing rate will automatically go up, I wonder how many of these trainers can actually still go and pass v4 or have passed the v4 just for Fun, It would be a nice Marketing strategy for them to say that get trained from a trainer who has xx years of experience and has also passed the V4 lab.

I totally agree with you. All I want is a person to answer my questions. And I can see the marketing strategies as well on the bootcamp´s websites, that´s why I asked for personal experiences.

Thanks a lot for your answers.

They helped a lot.

[Darby Weaver]

There are not a lot of replies because:

1. Not many people have passed v4.0 to start off with.

2. Not many people have been to a v4.0 Bootcamp.







I went to an IPexpert v4.0 CCIE Bootcamp that was Mock Labs, however, I've not been to the current lab yet.

I may go to Narbik in April (if there are no organizational scheduling issues) or if I cannot then I'd be heading to see Narbik.

I'm not sure I want/need more lecturing. I think I'm more inclined to go for training that is specifically hands-on and focused.

All of the existing trainers receive hih praise for their products.

INE has the most people who clainm to pass and use their products.

So if that is what you are looking for they have very little competition in terms of the number of reported passes for v4.0

However, some of their studentswho passed specifically mentioned self-study - so that may not help for which bootcamp to attend.

You need to assess yourself for what you need. Everyone starts the game at a different level.

[MadVillian]

Just to add with what Darby said...picking a bootcamp is based on the person. My opinion is, that with self-study materials, remote rack access and/or home lab via real equipment and/or Dynampis, Onsite/Instructor lead classes are less important than they used to be. But, if I'm making the choice to take off time from work and travel somewhere, it better be to get me over the hump to passing the test. So my advice would be talk to people who've actually passed the test and ask them. I've personally asked some of the guys who've passed v4 and I can tell you most of them used purely self study materials and one took Wolf's class in Canada. I would also recommend that you contact the companies themselves and ask them their passing rates.....they might blow smoke, but usually you can tell and factor it in to your decision.

I just can't see wasting time and/or money sitting in a class and watching slides on technologies. I agree with Darby at this stage lots of hands on with mentoring is more important to me.

[a61971]

A lot of years in telecom and as a teacher has thought me this:

You only truely understand a tech if you have done sweat over it. If we ain't
challenged og solutions comes too easy, -then we can mislead ourselfes into
believing we master it. Every single tech must be twisted to see it from strange angels.

It takes time, but we learn the stuff.

[a61971]

I mean, this is a personal journey, we have to learn the stuff.

We can buy 200 books, take 20 bootcamps and 500 labs, - but if we never is honest
to ourselves, and realize and admit our "soft spots" ... then we fail the lab.

[Darby Weaver]

Amen my friend.

It's one thing to know the details, another to be able to recite them from memory, and a totally diferent vanatage point when deploying them properly.

Some things you just have to live.

[npease]

I am considering Narbik CIERS I, one or two weeks from Heinz or possibly the INE mock lab boot camp. My thought was to take the bootcamp as close to my scheduled lab date as possible. I want to immerse my self in the lab environment leading up to the test. Also other than a boot camp, I don't know if I could take time off work the week before to study like I want to leading up to the test.

Both Narbik and Heinz have encouraged me to take the boot camp at least two months before my lab date. I am not sure what the best strategy is. Also I think I am good on the theory and don't want to spend my time in lectures. I do want hands on, "under the gun" lab practice with a great teacher who can tell me what I am doing wrong and why. I am not sure CIERS I would be the best for this. I firmly believe that the quality of the class is very much dependent on the teacher. Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Thanks!

[pappyaar]

After getting motivated by my boss, we both have started to get up on this track. I am re-starting it for the third time and willing to atleast complete all the techs :-). Its been 3rd day today of EIGRP, looking at every angle, disabling split horizon, checking wat routes coming through, where auto-summary is playing the role, which routes are getting affected, and today i have seen the beauty of it. One bit, and trust me, only ONE BIT of Subnet MASK can change the entire routing table. It was something i was looking for, and i know this time i will make it. I believe, that since CODE of IOS is not AI based, there are always predefined and limited rules for every sort of packet handling. Just break down the tech to those rules. Watch the entire packet and you will see the TTL difference, remember the IP overlap exemption of serial interfaces and look at each and every possibility.

So far, i think labbing each and everything gives more confidence. I am not always much in favour of bootcamps, i believe in hands-on. That gives more confidence that if a problem is given to you in any tech, you already know it inside out, so there is no possibility that you cant solve it. One mistake i made in past, i wont be making now is, this time i am taking very strict notes, which i will share by this or next weekend, with the name EIGRP Breakdown. Hope it will help those who are new, and want to know how other candidates look at the lab scenarios.

Sorry again for going OT. I am quite happy today with the outcome of my effort, havent properly slept for 3 days and working (discontigously) 10 hours daily. thats why i shared :-)

Edited by pappyaar, 13 May 2010 - 04:58 AM.

[raf]

After getting motivated by my boss, we both have started to get up on this track. I am re-starting it for the third time and willing to atleast complete all the techs :-). Its been 3rd day today of EIGRP, looking at every angle, disabling split horizon, checking wat routes coming through, where auto-summary is playing the role, which routes are getting affected, and today i have seen the beauty of it. One bit, and trust me, only ONE BIT of Subnet MASK can change the entire routing table. It was something i was looking for, and i know this time i will make it. I believe, that since CODE of IOS is not AI based, there are always predefined and limited rules for every sort of packet handling. Just break down the tech to those rules. Watch the entire packet and you will see the TTL difference, remember the IP overlap exemption of serial interfaces and look at each and every possibility.

So far, i think labbing each and everything gives more confidence. I am not always much in favour of bootcamps, i believe in hands-on. That gives more confidence that if a problem is given to you in any tech, you already know it inside out, so there is no possibility that you cant solve it. One mistake i made in past, i wont be making now is, this time i am taking very strict notes, which i will share by this or next weekend, with the name EIGRP Breakdown. Hope it will help those who are new, and want to know how other candidates look at the lab scenarios.

Sorry again for going OT. I am quite happy today with the outcome of my effort, havent properly slept for 3 days and working (discontigously) 10 hours daily. thats why i shared :-)

Hello

How do you study? Do you have own rack or GNS3?

Raf

[pappyaar]

Hello

How do you study? Do you have own rack or GNS3?

Raf

Dear Raf, i have 4 routers but no switches. But still i dont bother getting all the routers up and changing the cables for 2 reasons, one i am lazy, second there is alot of loadshading here. So i am relying on my notebook :-). Dynamips is more then enough for routing, which i am currently focusing. After i am done, i will be glad to see, what they can throw at me that i cant solve :-)

[a61971]

Hello

How do you study? Do you have own rack or GNS3?

Raf

I'm 95% GNS3. I just bought a Mac (I was very tired of GNS chrashing with Windows).

Then, - I have some tokens to do some online labs. But so far not much.

I like GNS, I can have the same lab running for a week or more. Taking my time
to get in depth with the problems and solutions.
Labbing half an hour there and 3 hours at another time. Suits me perfect.

With hired racks you got 6 hours. Finished. No time to play with it, and if some tech really
takes time, you never come to the last tasks in the lab test. Ok. Double rack time?? Not for me, thanks.

I guess I will end my studying with a lot of hands-on with real online racks.

By the way, I'm attending 360/CCIERS-1 next week, I hope it's worth the time and money.

Edited by a61971, 16 May 2010 - 11:35 PM.

[John Lockie]

I built a lab. I prefer working on the real thing, and with the hacking required to really use GNS3 when running a serious layer 2 configuration on top of routing adds too much work.

I guess I can say that I run a real lab because I am lazy ;-) Kinda like pappyaar! LOL

Regarding boot camps, I just posted my review of Narbik's 12 day end-to-end, which I found very worth the low cost.

http://www.johnpatri...rmmylife/?p=287

I agree with pappyaar about using a lab to really learn your stuff. But, I also realize that what others contribute to my mind is a way of expediting my path. I don't have the time to discover each problem on my own, hence I use the lab workbooks of vendors (primarily Narbik). Having gone to his bootcamp that enables me to see it from another perspective, and to also make sure what I am self-studying is not wrong! Cause sometimes we THINK WE HAVE it when we really DO NOT!

[pappyaar]

Dear John, it depends on how you prepare for your lab. I am not against training, but when you are on your way to become an expert, then its time to leave all the strings and walk by yourself. You can always HAVE IT. The IOS code is written by humans, and it will be mastered by humans. Only thing left now, is to believe.

I am not doing routing for number or for job. To me its important to do it by my bare effort, since it might be my only achievement in life ;-) I dont want to spoil it by any means buddy. Either its all me, or its nothing.

[John Lockie]

You and I will never agree on this.

What you say is flawed. You take some advice but not other advice. You can never do it completely on your own. As soon as you take someone's advice (even a man page is technically advice) you have broken your own philosophy. This kind of thinking actually hurts the CCIE program IMHO. Because this is why people think we are magicians, and should know everything. Mark my words, the ONLY THING - and I mean ONLY THING that will qualify you as an "EXPERT" is EXPERIENCE....not CCIE, no paper, no test qualifies you. Experience only. This is why I sit under tutor from experienced people only, not just some random CCSI

Don't take this wrong, but I would never hire you if you told me this in an interview. It's a prideful and somewhat naive approach. Youthful is probably the word I am looking for. And I am being blunt out of respect for you. If you said to me, "look...I got CCIE legit, ask me any R&S question and I should answer it, but I want you to hire me so that I can further become an expert" I would hire you. But what I hear is, "I am an expert because I didn't go to a boot camp and managed to get my CCIE". Ok great, do you want a pat on the back? Big deal.

Granted, I see where you are coming from - and to a degree I agree with you. If what you are saying is "I want to get the most from this experience, and in order to not cheat myself I am going to take a slightly harder road" then fine....I agree and applaud you. But if you are saying, "I am an expert because I didn't go to a boot camp and got CCIE, and you are not an expert because you went to a boot camp"....well, let's just see who gets hired first then ;-)

[pappyaar]

Dear John, you again misunderstood me :-)

If anyone taking a bootcamp, passes the lab, i wont be saying that he/she is not a CCIE or they dont deserve to be one since they needed someone to teach them. Not at all.

I started my CCIE studies by asking Scott morris and Ivan several times. But in the end, i want to solve problems on my own. Buddy, frankly i am not looking for your pat on my back anyway ;-).

If i cant solve it myself, i dont deserve to be a CCIE. How much any instructor will tell me ? is he committing that he will tell me everything and so i will be able to solve everything ? NO ? so what shall i do, if a question comes out of the scope the instructor thought me ? i will be looking at cisco docs, forums, to find the answer. So instead, i have adopted this approach from the very start.

One thing more, I was hired for a job that required me to handle a network that was of 64 nodes, and was expected to grow to be the largest islamic bank in my country. I was hired still i had no experience but i knew how to do research and how to implement solutions.

In another job, i was short listed and offered the job even i wasnt a CCNA. My peer, was CCNA, CCNP, 2 papers of CCVP, and 2 year ISP experience, plus enterprise experience as well. Even then i was offered only because i knew stuff no one else did. EEM and TCL. Atleast in my country, not much ppl knew about it.

I dont want to pursue this meaningless debate since its getting us nowhere :-) To me, only those ppl matter, who rely on their own research instead of looking for tutors to teach them technologies, which they should learn by themselves.

No offense

[pappyaar]

Dear John, you again misunderstood me :-)

If anyone taking a bootcamp, passes the lab, i wont be saying that he/she is not a CCIE or they dont deserve to be one since they needed someone to teach them. Not at all.

I started my CCIE studies by asking Scott morris and Ivan several times. But in the end, i want to solve problems on my own. Buddy, frankly i am not looking for your pat on my back anyway ;-).

If i cant solve it myself, i dont deserve to be a CCIE. How much any instructor will tell me ? is he committing that he will tell me everything and so i will be able to solve everything ? NO ? so what shall i do, if a question comes out of the scope the instructor thought me ? i will be looking at cisco docs, forums, to find the answer. So instead, i have adopted this approach from the very start.

One thing more, I was hired for a job that required me to handle a network that was of 64 nodes, and was expected to grow to be the largest islamic bank in my country. I was hired still i had no experience but i knew how to do research and how to implement solutions.

In another job, i was short listed and offered the job even i wasnt a CCNA. My peer, was CCNA, CCNP, 2 papers of CCVP, and 2 year ISP experience, plus enterprise experience as well. Even then i was offered only because i knew stuff no one else did. EEM and TCL. Atleast in my country, not much ppl knew about it.

I dont want to pursue this meaningless debate since its getting us nowhere :-) To me, only those ppl matter, who rely on their own research instead of looking for tutors to teach them technologies, which they should learn by themselves.

No offense

Kindly note that above statement is not meant to disrespect anyone. Taking bootcamp and then following on, is still requires a great amount of effort. Those who pass this way, are/were respectable to me.

But still i realize my above statement meant insult to those who are pursuing this approach, so my apologies. Dont get me wrong. Lets spend time on studies and become experts :-)

[a61971]

My idea. I think that what pappyaar tries to say, is that there is a danger in believing that
mastery of the tech can be obtained by "outside" resources.

You can attend 100 bootcamps, read 1000 books, but the real job is "inside" our heads.
Long time concentration, memory training, honest self assesment and pure hard work.

That produces a skilled man (in any field of life)and perhaps gives a number.

I think you are both right, you just sees it from each side, but you see the same thing.

I'm at a CCIE bootcamp right now, boring and a waste of time, but I heard of a guy who passed
the lab at his 15'th run. What a guy !!!

Edited by a61971, 19 May 2010 - 05:11 AM.

[John Lockie]

If i cant solve it myself, i dont deserve to be a CCIE.

I would place a bet that within 12 months of getting CCIE you will be on the phone with Cisco TAC for something!!!! =D

Can we agree that you will voluntarily relinquish your numbers at that time? :-) (i am kidding)

I think that a61971 is correct though. We are approaching the same conclusion from 2 different roads. Basically, there are no shortcuts.

[pappyaar]

Dear John, my best wishes are with you. We all will be glad to see your numbers soon so that you can support the newcomers here as well on this journey :-)

[notgoing2fail]

I feel like I'm reading about Cisco legends....Cisco Jedi Masters....do these guys have biographies or something?

How did they become so good? (yes I know dedication) but did they hang out at message forums too at first?

Let's take ME for example. Let's say hypothetically I become a CCIE.

Well, everyone in the world can come to this site and read up on all my past posts....they can see my growth....

When and if any of you guys here become CCIE's the same thing, we can read your struggles...

Why does it seem like I don't know anything about these guys? Wendell Odom? Jeremy Ciaora? Chris Bryant?

I know Wendell has 20+ years in networking, but still, how, who knighted them as the CCIE guys in the industry?

Anyone understand the words that are coming outta my mouth?

[a61971]

??

I have by now 23,5 years of experience in telcom (pabx's and transmission) and networking.
Hands-on and R&D.

Who in hell would ever listen to that long, sad and boring story? Or anyone elses. 5000 hours behind a Pc screen.
I rather read about Stoners run for his second world title in MotoGP.