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Mcse 2k3 . My Journey And Experience


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#1 xsifactor

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Posted 31 December 2005 - 05:54 PM

Hi Guyz,

Its been a long and arduous 2005 for me. I have atlast mananged to become an MCSE 2K3. It feels good to have finally attained this landmark. But I don’t feel top of the world.

At one end I am happy for all that I learnt this past year abt MS technology and the other end I really am not elated coz I know that anyone with a good memory can become an MCSE. The MCSE exams have grown progressively tougher right from NT(piece of cake) to 2K(some effort) to finally 2K3(bit more effort). The reality has still not changed which is that even a 10 year old with a good memory can become an MCSE.

Here is what I feel that an MCSE cld do 4 u and why 1 shld get an MCSE-
1) it gets u a few more interviews and a foot in the door for some.
2) it gets u that promotion u always wanted
3) it gets u the title of Engineer( if u already have not got one at university)

I find it really funny when guyz brag and beat a drum abt getting 900+ scores and 1000 on MCP exams. Give me a break guyz , plz give me a break. I myself have attained 900+ score on most exams and even attained 1000 on MCP exams. The reason I laugh at this sense of elevated achievement is coz what is the use of beating a drum when u know that between 75-100% of the questions u had already known before the exam. Surely, surely there r a few guyz here who have taken exams such as GRE , GMAT , LSAT etc. there wld also be guyz here like myself who hold formal IT qualifications. Did u ever get 2 c even 1 question prior to these exams . I have done abt 5 years of formal Uni studies and managed to get a perfect score on a couple of these . I am proud of that as I worked my a** of 2 get that. Why wld I ever be proud of getting 1000 on an MCP exam when I had seen 85% of the question b4 the exams. What is the big thing abt getting the remaining few new/ wrong questions(15-20%) from TK rite.

The reason I, like everyone here is forced 2 use tk is coz MS exams have two major flaws-
1) the question r really really tough( I have heard of / known guyz with 10 yrs+ exp, who never used TK(coz they didn’t know abt it) and ended up getting scores of below 600 repeatedly , yes I repeat below 600. this is after having studied MS Press ) . some questions r way outta context and most exams r interdependent on each other.
2) there r few questions in the db . Typically between 100-400. this makes it easily dumpable.

The above two reasons can be corrected by the following
1) make the questions moderate to easy. Anyone who puts in a good effort with MS press shld be able to pass.
2) Make a database of atleast 1500- 2000 questions. It shld take u more time to study tk than it shld take u 2 study MSPress. Thus making the use of TK less sensible.

But hey I don’t design ms exams and I don’t c anything gr8 in ms effort of simulations as the simulations r mostly easy and they 2 appear in tk in a matter of days.

I find it really funny when people take exams in all odd manner. There r guyz who take design exams right in the beginning. Give me a break guyz, design exams r probably the toughest MS exams out there. But thanx to TK, anyone can pass these in 2 days. I really cant figure out how u can understand design without understanding the core. Same goes with a lot of other exams which r strongly interdependent on each other. People here brag abt having passed an exam in 7 days. Personally I think that it wld take atleast 3-4 weeks to understand and assimilate the knowledge for each exam. But hey maybe there r a lotta smart guyz who can do it in 7 or less days.

Here r a few useful snippets but real facts ( dumpsters triumph)

1) Fastest time to become MCP. Approx 6-8 hrs. most guyz know this exam number. I am not mentioning it.
2) Fastest time to become MCSE. I have personally heard of 13 days. But maybe someone has beaten this.


I hold more respect for guyz who hold CISSP, CCIE and Citrix certs , coz I believe they guyz know their stuff.

In conclusion, I am not here to judge or ridicule anyone or what means u have used to attain an MCSE. For me its abt satisfying myself and not anyone else. I am happy for the little I know. Plz forgive me if I have offended anyone’s feelins.no offence meant.This is just a collection of my personal thoughts. Remember always, by dumping exams ur not fooling anyone, but only urself. U will someday reap the benefits of the hardwork u put in.

Lastly have a gr8 New Year. Thanx again 2 a lot of people who helped me in my effort. I am off for the fireworks to celebrate.

Work hard and lets all try to make the industry value and trust us MCSE’s and not make them think that we r a bunch of good memory guyz. all comments r welcomed.

So long

XsiFactor

Edited by xsifactor, 31 December 2005 - 05:57 PM.

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#2 communication

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Posted 31 December 2005 - 06:19 PM

Nice Experience so full of wit.Hope 06 will be a greater year.
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#3 imran.nazir

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Posted 31 December 2005 - 07:03 PM

Intersting comments u made. now lets put ur facts in order.

MCSE gets you:

1. It gets u a few interviews and a foot in the door.
2. It gets u promotion
3. get u the title

then u said, y we use tk.
1. the questions are very hard

and y it is easy to dump these tests.
1. few questions in database.

Now here's my opinion:

i myself am mcp, mcsa w2k and soon to be mcsa w2k3, have i used tk? yes, i sure have on every ms exam. Does that mean i did not learn anything? I m pretty sure you yourself have used tk to get through mcse and i know there are people who pass these exams without studying tk and passing, such as my brother who got his education abroad and did not fail a single ms exam without any experience in the field and no help from tk, but he did his mcse in win2k. He inspired me and now i m here.

Today i study and wat i don't understand i ask my brother, i do use tk and learn a lot from tk as well. Can i pass these exams without using tk, yes i can, if my brother can do it, then i can do it, but y should i not use the resource that's given to me, i agree that by using tk we are taking the test at home but we are not dumping it, we are going in, understanding the question, and then answering it. tk is the last source i go to before taking my exam.

There are so many things in the exams that are not covered in the ms presss book unless you buy the stack of 15 books off of ebay for one exam. The tech field is very compatative, if you don't have mcse you won't even get an interview, that is why people dump these exams. Another factor is time, no one has enough time to just spend on each exam, i can't even imagine going through 15 books for one exam, it would take months to get through the material, and who needs to know every single detail about how everythign works. i mean you drive a car, do you know every single thing that goes on inside the motor of a car.

If someone comes up to me and asks me to setup sus or to configure raid or other thing that i've done in any ms exam i've took i can assure u that i can carry that request out without any problems, people who want to learn will use tk to learn not to dump, also not everyone can afford to fail these tests over and over again.

When you use tk you know what you are doing and why. If you use it for wrong reasons (to dump) you will always have that inner consious telling you that it is wrong, and if you use it for the right reason, you will feel no regrets and i've no regrets about using tk.

thank u :P
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#4 merlin

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Posted 31 December 2005 - 11:45 PM

I hate the term PAPER MCSE's, and i would not like if people where to think that i am one of those paper MCSE's.
That's why i always try to learn the stuff as good as possible.
And yes i use TK, why?
Exams cost a lot of money, and i don't like faliure.


And to prove i can become a top engineer, i'm not stopping at the point where i reach the MCSE.
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#5 neo2003sp1

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 06:14 AM

Two Dumps Thumbs Up :D
I wonder if anyone still remember we have the "Post of the Month" Nomination in our forum? :mellow:
Hey! Newbies, Members, Advanced Membrs, Super Members and VIP members, where are you now???
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#6 imran.nazir

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:02 AM

Two Dumps Thumbs Up :D
I wonder if anyone still remember we have the "Post of the Month" Nomination in our forum? :mellow:
Hey! Newbies, Members, Advanced Membrs, Super Members and VIP members, where are you now???


i think i spoke for All the newbeis, members, advanced members, super members and VIP members. :P
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#7 TSW1983

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:16 AM

whoa that was a long post. You contradict yourself on a couple of occassions. First you complain that a ten year old can pass these tests. Then, you go on to say that the questions are too hard and many experienced people fail. Second of all, If you relied strictly on TK to get your MCSE, then I feel sorry for you and you are not worthy of an MCSE title. One of these days you will end up looking like an idiot in front of your boss when you find youself in a situation that requires you to utilize the knowledge you would otherwise have.

Edited by TSW1983, 01 January 2006 - 07:26 AM.

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#8 imran.nazir

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:34 AM

whoa that was a long post. You contradict yourself on a couple of occassions. First you complain that a ten year old can pass these tests. Then, you go on to say that the questions are too hard and many experienced people fail. Second of all, If you relied strictly on TK to get your MCSE, than I feel sorry for you and you are not worthy of an MCSE title. One of these days you will end up looking like an idiot in front of your boss when you find youself in a situation that requires you to utilize the knowledge you would otherwise have.


i agree with you and have brought this point up in my reply as well but some people just can't help stop thinking that if you tk then your a cheater and you don't know anything about mcse or any exam you pass using tk.

The experienced men, like xsifactor said, with 10 years of experince cannot pass these exams because of their complexity then how long would i take a person to pass these tests who has 6 months of experience and i know in the first 6 months of your job no one will let you go near a server considering you start at the base level.

Here's what dumping means: you take tk and memorize the answers not knowing wat these answer mean or have a bit understanding of wat they mean.

and finally when you go to an interview you will be asked about wat you know, and if you've dumped the exmas you will not get the job and this is a fact. Even if a person gets through the interview then he won't last at the job because he'll just stand there looking like an idiot trying to figure out how to setup scopes in dhcp and what ip addresses to use.

so in conclusion it doesn't hurt a person who has an mcse and knows his stuff to go get a job then a person who just has a paper mcse and doesn't know jack about it, an employer hiring can tell right away who knows his stuff and who doesn't.

There has to be one admin in here who does the hiring/firing of employees. Our questiosn to that admin would be to explain their hiring process and elimination process of resumes/candidates.
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#9 TheFett

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 09:11 AM

I haven't hired/fired anyone recently. I've brought entry level people in and built them up from the ground floor. They eventually became MCPs,MCSE's. Once they attain that level, I personally know that they worked hard, and I reward them with an increase. About 4 years ago, times were tough in the job market, so I didn't see too many people jumping around from company to company. Things are getting better now. I know, because I get alot more offers now.

The TK saga continues. I will add my own personal story. My first exam was Windows 2000 professional(70-210) many years ago, it seems. I was in the field and took classes for 7 months, at night. I studied the MOC and transcenders. Also, I had one pc for experimentation. That was it! Transcenders had about 3 or 4 very similar questions on the exam, but that was about it. Everything else was completely new and/or reworded. I studied for 3 months. Regarding transcenders, I would study why the answers were wrong, why they were right.....So, after my MCSE courses were over, I studied for 3 months, the took the exam. I passed with a score in the low 700s. Granted, the passing score was at minimum, maybe 660. I was a happy camper. At the same time, I was not aware of TK and braindumps. Didn't know they existed! Then I passed 70-215, and so on.

Soon after I passed the exams, I was patting myself on the back to one of my vendor reps that comes in once in awhile. He told me that I took too long to study for them. It was him, that introduced me to the concept of braindumps. I reviewed a braindump for one of my exams. I was surprised to see all of the questions on it. I felt good that I passed(yes, I studied alot), but I quickly realized that there were so many people acing the exams now, with no experience in the IT world. So, the exam I just took, didn't mean that much to me.

If I see a candidate's Microsoft transcript, and notice that they took the design exams before the core exams, I will not hire them. Period.

I remember a few years ago when I belonged to another forum for certifications. One post really made me mad, but I laughed it off. Some guy was bragging that he aced(1000/1000) an exam. That's all he said in the post. So now, other members wrote back and asked what he used to prep, books, etc, the usual stuff. One member asked him what questions were on the exam? The guy who bragged about the score, said: I didn't study the questions. I just studied the answers! I actually was laughing for 2 days straight. He actually memorized the answers! That guy got alot a smack from the other members on the site too. Folks, that is your toilet paper mcse.

Most people do not want to spend 2 to 3 months studying for one exam. I get the feeling that they want the MCSE during that 3 month time frame. If I see something like that, they are not hired. My take is at least 6 months for MCSE. I love looking at the transcripts. It speaks volumes......

Everyone must do what they wish. I am completely satisfied with my certs, and my career. I can back up my certs with my 11+ years in the field. I agree that some of these exams are very difficult, and expensive for some of you. If you study TK, please read a book on the subject matter first, and then experiment on a test computer.

For the newbies out there, you have a choice.
A.) Go straight to the Shares section and download the latest TK for your exam.
B.) Put some quality study time in, experiment, talk with mentors, etc....and then review with TK.

Choice B is correct. But TK says answer A is correct.........
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#10 BOFH

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 09:42 AM

:ph34r:
Hi All
Pheeee-ew! this is a long post to read through! xsifactor thanks for the post. I dont see the contradictions although other have pointed those out. TheFett make some really valid points too!

Whenever the topic of "Paper MCSE" comes up emotions run riot and people say things in the heat of the moment. Sadikhov is a family and often the thing that gives a family strength is that we dont always agree although we *ALL* think we're right *ALL OF THE TIME*. (especially me, I am always right .... not).

The core questions are:
  • Will an MCSE get me an interview?
  • Will experience only get me an interview?
  • If I have experience will an MCSE improve my rate of pay?
  • Will MCSE give me recognition with my peers?
  • How am I screened at interview?
  • How am I screened during my probationary period?
  • Ultimately how can I ensure I stay out of the "Down-size-danger-zone"?
Will an MCSE get me an interview?
Possibly. If an employer is looking for a newbie with commitment the cert says a candidate has invested in themself. If your transcript shows blocks of exams too close together your transcript may not be something you want to send with your resume. Brain-dumpers and boot-campers (sometimes the same thing!) will show sometimes 7 exams in 2 weeks - a sure fire sign that the individual may not have had the time to do the legitmate study - I always screen these by phone and ask real life questions not looking for right answers but for reasoning and background knowledge.

Will experience only get me an interview?
Possibly. Depends what an employer is looking for. If you're a manager at a Microsoft Partner then partly experience and partly exams but never one without the other.

If I have experience will an MCSE improve my rate of pay?
Almost invariably, yes but only at certain levels and only if you demonstrate you need it on your personal development plan and only if it fits with the company's goals (you're more likely to get a raise for a premium MS Cert if you work for an MS Partner as it helps the company get to the next level (say Gold Partner)).

Will MCSE give me recognition with my peers?
Sometimes, sadly, no. If peers see tesking printouts on your desk and hear you brag how you cracked the exam in 12 minutes flat - then NO. Everyone hates cheats, everyone hates people who devalue something that others work very hard to legitimately pass. If your colleagues believe you took short-cuts to pass then all your effort is less than worthless. However, an MCSE gained over 12 months using a lab in the office and lunch breaks researching and practicing carries an entirely different value for your colleagues (AND YOUR BOSS).

How am I screened at interview?
I tend to screen based upon what I need. Key here is to sell umbrellas if its raining. (research your application and slant your CV to the needs of the company even if they're not stated in the ad). I like candidates who demonstrate that they read around the topic and dont depend on others to do their study for them. I had a candidate interview recently for a consultant position who clearly demonstrated they had read around the topic by telling me something on the news wires the previous day relating to one of the topics they had to present upon. I was impressed and so were the HR Droids. Also, NEVER waffle. If you dont know *SAY YOU DONT KNOW* how else will a propective employer know they can trust you to ask for help! (Its hard being a competitive techie and admitting in interview you dont know - its an ego blow!). Make sure you can pitch information at several levels - try pitching to the HR Droid. If the HR Droid understands and says they do the tehnical people will be impressed - DONT JUST WOW THE TECHIES!

How am I screened during my probationary period?
So you got your dream job, you can ease off the gas? NOT A CHANCE! the probationary period often lasts 3-6 months and you can be terminated almost any time during that period. Is it ever okay to say to your boss: "I cant do that unless the company invests in my future" or "I wont do that unless you pay for trainning for me". Probies need to impress even more than at interview. Once you've got out of probation you will have a "personal development plan" which will include training, based upon skills and aptitudes shown during probation and often building upon your home studies and hard won MCSE (If you went that way). Probies are screened for attitude "Think not what your [company] can do for you; rather think what you can do for your [company]." (Apologies for the paraphrase!)

Ultimately, how can I ensure I stay out of the "Down-size-danger-zone"?
I dont think anyone has all the answers to this one. But continuous learning and demonstrating you aren't one of those people who repeatedly refer to how things used to be and how they should stay that way. The 21st Century economy needs people willing to step outside their comfort zone and demonstrate that they will do what it takes to make the company a success. Certification is only *ONE* of the ways of doing that. A flexible attitude, being keen to learn new things throroughly, being a team player and supporting your boss (whose butt is for sitting not for kissing) are the others.

Hope that helps, I've recommended xsifactor's post for post of the month although I dont think I can actually nominate it as a mod : o (.
Cheers
BOFH
:ph34r:

Edited by BOFH, 01 January 2006 - 10:04 AM.

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#11 TSW1983

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 10:19 AM

For the newbies out there, you have a choice.
A.) Go straight to the Shares section and download the latest TK for your exam.
B.) Put some quality study time in, experiment, talk with mentors, etc....and then review with TK.

Choice B is correct. But TK says answer A is correct.........


exactly, only "B" will get you anywhere. Unfortunately, too many people take the easy way and memorize TK to pass. That's why the value of the MCSE has dropped, there are too many paper MCSEs out there.
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#12 xsifactor

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 11:30 AM

BOFH, u have time and again proved that u have a firm head above ur shoulder. no wonder a lot of people including me respect u as a senior member in Sadikhov.

and as far as the contradiction of my post is concerned. i really dont c any. some of u didnt get the message of my post. its really not abt the ethics of using tk. infact thats all together a different issue and anybody who has a prob with it, wldnt be reading this post or be a part of sadhikov. i have taken a year to get my MCSE( from the day i started in this track). if i had to just dump it, i wld have completed my MCSE in 15 days flat.

the whole pnt of my post, was to highlight the fact that exams r totally dumpable and the use of tk is a reality. and reality bytes!!! even i 2 cant afford a fail and hence use tk, so no contradictions guyz. why do some of u get offended so quickly when this touchy topic comes up. take it easy guyz. we r a part of the same family called sadhikov, so plz no temper flares. i am just someone "who likes to state things as it is". i am not a guy who likes to post , hey i got 1000/1000 and that too in under 10 mins. am i not a champ!!! plz pat me and praise me(pssst.. dont tell anyone that 100% of the questions where from tk ;) )

get the essence of my post. dont look 4 contradictions. :)

Edited by xsifactor, 01 January 2006 - 11:39 AM.

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#13 imran.nazir

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 05:02 PM

Some very useful points have been made in this post, i do think after reading this post people who use tk just to pass exams will have a change of heart, this post must be pinned so everyone can read it.

Thanx alot to TheFett and BOFH for providing us with useful information and giving us a look from the employer point of view and to xsifactor for touching this topic and starting this thread.

At the end of the day wat we've learned is to use tk to learn not to dump

Happy new year to all ;)
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#14 Mehboob

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 08:40 PM

different peoples,different minds and different thoughts ......

I believe that the people should do the same as he/she says,I am not blamming anyone,Its my thoughts,whatever we do we should do with honesty :)

If we pass any of the certification with good marks we should help others to pass them out because sometime we feels that "We should help others but we rarely does".We have to attend our role with honesty and 100% :)

Thanks a lot to all :) God Bless You all :)

-MEHB
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#15 BOFH

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 11:51 PM

:ph34r:
I've pinned this one on request - until 1st Feb (or whenever we stop getting responses whichever is soonest).
Cheers
BOFH
:ph34r:
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#16 trueblue

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 04:31 AM

Happy New Year to all. I wish you every success in 2006.

Regarding the MCSE certification and its advantage in securing a job, here's my 2 cents worth. I run a small IT business where I have the final say in hiring, and I'll tell you that all the MCSE certs in the world are no match for a good employment history, and good job references.

Although history is no absolute indicator of future performance, it's unlikely that the applicant with a bucket load of Microsoft certs, but a poor work history, will do any better in his new job, than he did in the old one.

For example, if an applicant has been working satisfactorily in a similar position for a period of time, but with no certifications, I'm likely to consider him over another who has certifications, but no verifiable experience, since he is essentially an unknown quantity. However, if a candidate has certifications AND experience (and great references), then he is the best candidate of all.

I'd say that certifications are only one part of a candidate’s profile, and must be evaluated in the context of the candidate's full resume. However, for entry-level positions for recent graduates with no work experience, they can still be a useful distinguishing factor, but only in context.

I'd suggest that in a tightening job market, young job seekers get some real-world experience through internships, for example, whenever possible. This allows them to build a job history and resume before they formally start work.

Of course, certifications are important, and the more highly prized ones like the CCIE, for example, demonstrate a mastery of the field that is second to none. This certification stands on its own, and is highly respected.

However, given the ease with which one can attain an MCSE cert nowadays (braindumps etc), the MCSE is no longer in this category, and an MCSE certified applicant will need to support his application with more tangible and verifiable real world evidence of his ability.
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#17 imran.nazir

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:49 AM

I'd say that certifications are only one part of a candidate’s profile, and must be evaluated in the context of the candidate's full resume. However, for entry-level positions for recent graduates with no work experience, they can still be a useful distinguishing factor, but only in context.

I'd suggest that in a tightening job market, young job seekers get some real-world experience through internships, for example, whenever possible. This allows them to build a job history and resume before they formally start work.


First of all thank you for your thoughts in this thread and secondly, i m a recent grad, well i graudted 3 months ago and since then i've decided to get my mcse and nothing else, i've been putting in atleast 8 hours a day studying and carrying out labs and have my M$ certs since, i've no job experience, i went for an intern interview and was interviewed by 3 guys. The main admin only held an AA degree and no certs, only experience, what i m trying to get at is: by getting an MCSE 2k3 and only an AA degree will i be considered an over qualified person for an entry level job? i plan on getting my BA as well and looking for schools to enroll into, and CCNA is a must this year for me, with no exprience in the field.

The admins from the intern interview never called me back, upon request they said that i was over qualified for the intern which i didn't understand y because i was just going to put some computers together. At first i was going to stop myself at MCSA 2k3 but it holds no value in the market any more, every job even entry level wants a engineering title liek MCSE 2k3 or CCNP even if they r running WIN NT 4.0 and using link sis routers.

So Employers we entry level people need to know what you guys consider being over qualified for an entry level job. and how much time do u guys look for an entry level person to have spend in internships.

thanx ^_^

Edited by imran.nazir, 02 January 2006 - 07:52 AM.

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#18 trueblue

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 03:45 AM

Hi Imran. This is a long post! First, I commend you on furthering your education. This is an investment in your future, and will pay great dividends in the long term, despite the short term sacrifices.

Regarding your recent interview, just remember that employers are human too, and can be just as envious and insecure as the rest of us. In a company where your bosses only have a basic education, and are faced with an applicant with advanced certifications, some of them will certainly feel threatened."Here's this guy who will someday take my job. We don’t want him here."

That whole “overqualified” thing is a myth. It’s simply a cop-out by an employer who for whatever reason doesn’t want to hire you, but is not frank enough to tell you why. Maybe they think they’d have to pay you too much, or that an ambitious person like yourself wouldn’t stay in that entry-level job for long. Think about it, are they saying that you are so highly qualified, that you will do your job too well? Under-qualified is a valid reason, over-qualified is not.

Were I you, I’d forget about that company and move on. This doesn’t seem like the kind of organization where an ambitious person like yourself can grow and flourish. Maybe you should be aiming higher.

Work experience is a valuable asset on any young person’s resume. It says that you have something more than just book knowledge. Here are a few suggestions for getting some practical experience on your resume:

1) You could volunteer to do IT work for a charity, e.g. The Salvation Army, the Red Cross, a homeless shelter, etc. You could manage their computers, upgrade their network, improve their systems, etc. They wouldn’t be able to pay much, if anything at all, but you’re doing it for the experience. Just make sure that there is someone senior who can give you a valuable reference when you’re finished.

2) You could freelance. You could place an ad for yourself in the local newspaper as a qualified Microsoft professional for hire. This could give you many opportunities you might not otherwise have had. You’d be working for yourself, but once you do a good job the word will spread, and you might soon find someone willing to permanently employ you, if that is what you want. I work with small businesses, and they have lots of IT needs, but limited finances don’t always allow them to hire the permanent staff they need. This is an opportunity for you.

3) Talk to people. Do not underestimate the power of effective networking. You could leverage your contacts and their contacts to find unadvertised opportunities. Some say that fewer than half of all job opportunities are formally advertised. Many are only advertised internally, or communicated by word of mouth, or through other informal channels. Many may remain unfilled. For example, I have never placed an ad for employees. I simply talk to my contacts who recommend people they trust.

My point is that as a bright young graduate, you just need to get your foot in the door, and once you’re in, your talent, ability and attitude will do the rest.

My advice to you would be to determine your goals, and prepare yourself for the opportunities that will come your way. Good goals should force you to stretch yourself to reach them, growing in the process. You will need to educate yourself academically and otherwise, and you will need to gain the relevant experience.

Finally, don’t let under-achievers discourage you. Were you to visit that company some time in the future, those managers, if they were still with the company at all, would likely be no further. They are unlikely to have advanced much in that time. You, on the other hand, through education, hard work and ambition, would be well on the way to living your dreams.

I wish you every success in your career.
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#19 ojayy

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 12:44 AM

:ph34r: :ph34r:

Hi Guys.. Happy New Year..


Well First of all I feel that what really counts at the end of the day is What you know.Companies will ask you some vigorous questions and I'm quite sure 90 percent of the questions do not come from any TK or simmilar source...

My feeling is The TK is a very legal and [know widely used method of study].

I tend to find that TK MCSE are generally Sneered at and seen as "Paper MCSEs" who know absolutely nothing.
This world is becoming fast and very competitive and you find trying to pump 8 or so Study gurides into your head is time consuming and tedious.

If one can use the TK usefully and implemnent the knowledge gained from there into real life situations like at work for example, one will end up gaining experience as you go and ultimately there is nothing wrong with that.

The danger is that there is a very fine line between Studying just to pass and get a cert and studying to KNOW and understand whats on the paper.

So at the end of the day its a personal decision.One way or another you just have to make sure when you "fall from grace" .It won't be in the interview room or worse still In a real live working environment.

I prefare to fall from grace in the exam room.Learn again and keep going till I know whats happeneing and pass.

:ph34r:
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#20 imran.nazir

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 04:50 AM

Hi Imran. This is a long post! First, I commend you on furthering your education. This is an investment in your future, and will pay great dividends in the long term, despite the short term sacrifices.

Regarding your recent interview, just remember that employers are human too, and can be just as envious and insecure as the rest of us. In a company where your bosses only have a basic education, and are faced with an applicant with advanced certifications, some of them will certainly feel threatened."Here's this guy who will someday take my job. We don’t want him here."

Finally, don’t let under-achievers discourage you. Were you to visit that company some time in the future, those managers, if they were still with the company at all, would likely be no further. They are unlikely to have advanced much in that time. You, on the other hand, through education, hard work and ambition, would be well on the way to living your dreams.

I wish you every success in your career.


thank you true blue for your advice. it is well taken and i'll pursue my BA degree and work interns till i graduate.

This thread has been very helpful, thank you all for your thoughts ;)
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#21 spacyfreak

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 09:13 AM

Nice post. And good explanation of you position.

Well, after passing 12 different exams (mcse, lpi and ccna) i can say YES!
There are lots of paper admins who dont have a glue about networking, but have the cert.

I am at work, and i have to do with Cisco network devices, sometimes microsoft servers, and lot of linux.

I think, passing an exam, and beeing good at the job in real live, that are two very different terms.
I allways tried to understand and learn as much as possible.. But in the end - FOR WHAT?
In the job, you need only little little parts of the whole knowledge you learn for exam.
And if you need in the job something you dont know - USE GOOGLE! You will find the answer to everything.

I learned for each exam with Testking. My exchange 2000 exam i fiinished in 7 minutes.

Some month later, i had to install a Active Directory Domain and an Exchange Server for a company.
I did it at home with some pcs, to be prepared. Then went to the company, and did the installation.
The system is still running - since 2 years without problems.

So finally - i think the best advice is to understand that exam passing and real live at the job are different worlds.
Both are very important. Dont only memorize stuff to pass. You will CRY when you come to company, and the people will laugh at you, if you dont know basic stuff.

So - do both. Learn well and understand the basics - BUT FOR EXAM, MEMORIZE LIKE A MANIAC!
Muhaha. Thats my opinion to this neverending discussion about "paperadmins" "cheaters" and "professionals".

:
The core questions are:[list=1]
[*]Will an MCSE get me an interview?

Of cause. In Germany, you DONT have a chance to touch a microsoft server in a good company without that cert.

[*]Will experience only get me an interview?

Expirience in addition to the cert is BEST you can have to get many interviews.

[*]If I have experience will an MCSE improve my rate of pay?

Depends on YOU, and the company you work for. How good do you sell yourself?
How much money is your work worth for the company?
But definitely - the mcse will NOT DECREASE your rate of pay.

[


Edited by spacyfreak, 04 January 2006 - 05:30 PM.

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#22 imran.nazir

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 11:39 AM

Nice post. And good explanation of you position.

Well, after passing 12 different exams (mcse, lpi and ccna) i can say YES!
There are lots of paper admins who dont have a glue about networking, but have the cert.

I am at work, and i have to do with Cisco network devices, sometimes microsoft servers, and lot of linux.

I think, passing an exam, and beeing good at the job in real live, that are two very different terms.
I allways tried to understand and learn as much as possible.. But in the end - FOR WHAT?
In the job, you need only little little parts of the whole knowledge you learn for exam.
And if you need in the job something you dont know - USE GOOGLE! You will find the answer to everything.

I learned for each exam with Testking. My exchange 2000 exam i fiinished in 7 minutes.

Some month later, i had to install a Active Directory Domain and an Exchange Server for a company.
I did it at home with some pcs, to be prepared. Then went to the company, and did the installation.
The system is still running - since 2 years without problems.

So finally - i think the best advice is to understand that exam passing and real live at the job are different worlds.
Both are very important. Dont only memorize stuff to pass. You will CRY when you come to company, and the people will laugh at you, if you dont know basic stuff.

So - do both. Learn well and understand the basics - BUT FOR EXAM, MEMORIZE LIKE A MANIAC!
Muhaha. Thats my opinion to this neverending discussion about "paperadmins" "cheaters" and "professionals".


i think you mixed your opinions a bit, wat you are trying to say is or wat i understood from your post is that to study hard for the exam and also memorize the tk answers because we will not be using much knowledge that we are learning from the exams in real life only bits of it. When it comes to job we should search google for it :huh: , haha.

please make urself clear. i m confused. :wacko:
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#23 TSW1983

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 12:41 PM

And if you need in the job something you dont know - USE GOOGLE


Yeah but what if you lose access to the web, I guess then you have to use the "phone a friend" lifeline :D

j/k, but I now what you're getting at, and I agree with you to a certain extent. I relied on google myself many times to solve various PC issues, and it has rarely failed me. The best support site is probably experts-exchange, really an excellent resource...and google makes free access to it possible :)
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#24 spacyfreak

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 04:02 PM

Well - for example.

Its good to know the basics. And its good to know detailed THE THINGS YOU NEED.

Before two weeks i had to install and configure IAS (Microsoft Radius like Server).
I knew the basics - what it is and what radius protocol is and for what this is.
But the details for Konfiguration i did read at Microsoft Knowledgebase at the moment i needed it.

Thats what i mean - You need a head like a melone if you try to know the details about EVERYTHING at ANYTIME. To me, that is not possible. My range of needed knowledge is to bright.
Cisco, MS and Linux are all very complicated, and i cant know everything at anytime.
But i have good basic knowledge about what is possible. For the details i ask google - at the time i need them.

But for exam - i have to pack detailed knowledge about the right answer to give in the test.
And that is only possible with memorizing hundreds of terms, which i may will never need in my life again.
But its good to know, that they exist and where to look, if you need more details about them. B)

Noone can tell me that he knews ALL the details about ALL the terms for CCNA, LPI, MCSE at ANYTIME.
Also if you did learn the details (cause you want to be a "good" admin), be sure that you will forget that details after some month. After two years you will just remember some little things about all the stuff - if you dont practice it.

Edited by spacyfreak, 04 January 2006 - 05:33 PM.

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#25 trueblue

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 06:19 PM

That's why we give our job applicants a practical test at the final interview (like the CCIE). Let's see you brain dump or Google your way through that. :D
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#26 trueblue

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 07:12 PM

Just imagine that the guy who installed the brakes on your car brain dumped his way through mechanics school. Makes you feel real confident, doesn't it? :D
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#27 TAVId

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 07:32 PM

That's why we give our job applicants a practical test at the final interview (like the CCIE). Let's see you brain dump or Google your way through that. :D


Excellent!

More and more employers will do that. Because more and more employers know and realise that nowadays, as someone said, you can pass a MCSE in a couple of weeks. They're not saying that you're a paper mcse but they should be sure of this.

My saying is... "Trust, but verify!"

CCNP's MCSE's and other certified professinals, get more attention in the IT field when it comes to a new job. But in my opinion... they have to prove that they're qualified before they're hired.
The ideal combination would be a couple of years experience in IT field and some certs.
From my personal experience I tell you that if you're certified that doesn't necesarly mean that you can handle imediatly any troubleshooting activity. In real world, sometimes things differ.

Another point of mine is that... (and this was overlooked by many, if not all of you) a certification tells much more than the fact that you are an IT proffesional, it tells that you are more interested in your career, that you want to develop youself and to evolve. It says much of you as a person. And this carries a lot of weight too in an interview.

My opinion is... Earn certifications and KNOW YOUR STUFF WELL!!! it's true that you don't use every information from the certs in real life but WHEN YOU LEARN FOR IT LEARN IT LIKE YOU WOULD DO (don't rely on google).


TAVI.

Edited by TAVId, 04 January 2006 - 07:34 PM.

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#28 trueblue

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 07:37 PM

Well said, TAVId.
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#29 spacyfreak

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 01:15 AM

Well - i think in a real testlab exam it would be easier for me than selecting some abstract answers in multiple choice exams.
As i said, i AM in the job, and i fix daily problems - with or without certs. B)



So - i congretulate you! You must have brains like melones when you have every bit in your head you will ever need... fool yourself! Muhaha.
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#30 Faulty

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:16 AM

Well - i think in a real testlab exam it would be easier for me than selecting some abstract answers in multiple choice exams.
As i said, i AM in the job, and i fix daily problems - with or without certs. B)



So - i congretulate you! You must have brains like melones when you have every bit in your head you will ever need... fool yourself! Muhaha.



I have several problems with Microsoft exams. One being that they are a lot of the time an english test, they have tricky wording and some times don't even give you a clear description of the problem or network infrastructure around it.

I'm 19, I went to college for a year, 8 hours a day, the same topic every day for a month. This is intensive training, half day of theory, half day of hands on work. Tests every 2 days. You HAD to know your shit to get through. I ended up 3rd in the class (Blackmeanie was 1st). There was no TK'ing these exams and tests! I managed to get a couple of certs while in college (3 or 4) and did use TK. Although, these for the most part were not memorized. Ask Blackmeanie, we'll get on msn and be like, "Man, look at Q15 on page 157.. why isn't it this?" So, we go off on google, look up the terms in question, learn how the program/applications/hardware works and then we can justify the TK answer or what we actually think the answer is. I know for a fact, that we both answer the question in our heads before we read the answers. MEANIE prints all the questions out WITHOUT ANSWERS. Remember, this is after a year in college, $900 worth of books, countless hours of studying and contributing to this forum then we review the TK and anihiliate the exams.

I will not lie, I CANNOT stand it when I see [passed 70-294] with score of 955 and the next 3 replies are, what are the sims? which questions did you get, what did you answer for q34 on v12? SERIOUSLY, grow a pair and buckle down, armed with google and find out where you're confused. ONLY then will you really understand what TK is trying to tell you, or if and why it is wrong.

Paper MCSE's are my nemesis. I want to destroy them.
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